Peter Gammons

NESN Red Sox analyst Peter Gammons talked to The Big Show Monday afternoon, and one of the big topics, as it was all around Boston last weekend, was Manny Ramirez. Gammons said that he wasn’t one of the media members swept in up in the hype of Manny’s return and that he wasn’t too surprised with the way the star left town.

“I’m not celebrity-driven. I tend to be baseball-driven so it really didn’t fascinate me at all,” Gammons said. “It’s a nice story and everything, but it’s not like he cared whether they ever won and it’s not like he left town with any dignity. He’s not Dustin Pedroia. I’m sorry. You wouldn’t be trading Clay Buchholz for him. The fact that there were only two teams willing to take him with the Red Sox willing to pay his salary in 2008 and neither team would give up a prospect really tells you something about his stature in the game.”

He also talked about the plausibility that the Red Sox, Rays and Yankees could all win 100 games, but one would not make the playoffs.

“Now, we know that happened, but in this era, that’s really difficult to do. It is a possibility that all three teams could win 100 games, and one of them doesn’t make the playoffs.”

What follows is a transcript of that interview. To hear the entire interview, click on The Big Show audio on demand page.

How surprised were you to see Roger Clemens sitting on top of the Green Monster Friday night?

I was told he was coming on Wednesday. … I decided, well, we’ll break the news on NESN at 6 o’clock on Friday night. A couple people from the Red Sox told me that [Clemens’ friend] Eddie Miller had the Monster seats. It really was a bizarre Friday night.

Is he not affected by the stories that are out there about him?

I don’t know. I don’t know what he believes and what he doesn’t believe. I’m not presuming guilt here, but I remember when he testified in front of Congress, I was watching a game with a general manager and I made the comment that I thought, watching him, that he believed he had never done anything, taken anything. And this person, who was a psychology major at an Ivy League school, said to me, “Well, you know, would you say, like a lot of professional athletes, that Roger’s a little self-absorbed?” And I said, “Yeah, there’s no question.” He said, “One of the basic truisms about psychology is that people who are self-absorbed can become delusional.” So I’m not really sure that Roger thinks that there’s anything wrong there.

That doesn’t exactly wipe the slate clean, though.

No, it doesn’t wipe the slate clean, but I find it kind of fascinating. It’s a beautiful weekend. They’re playing the Dodgers, and there’s Roger sitting out in the Monster seats. Rihanna’s in behind home plate. It was just one of those “Only in Fenway” nights.

The Manny reaction: Was it about 50-50, would you say?

I think it was probably a bigger story to the media than it was to people who actually like baseball. He had one meaningful appearance in the weekend, and he struck out against Daniel Bard. It was the only event of any consequence with him in the game, and look it, they’re playing very well. I think a lot of people were sort of, “OK, fine, he was funny and everything.” But it’s been two years now. It’s been gone, and there are still people that like to say, “Uh, David Ortiz isn’t the same.” Well, the fact is, over his entire career when the two played together, Ortiz’s statistics with Manny and without him were exactly the same. From August 1, 2006 to July 31, 2008, Elias [Sports Bureau] has showed that Ortiz’s numbers were much better without Manny than with Manny. So that whole story is a fable that people on ESPN like to tell.

But isn’t Manny still a lightning rod in this community as opposed to wherever else the Dodgers go to play this season?

I guess so. I’m not celebrity-driven. I tend to be baseball-driven so it really didn’t fascinate me at all. It’s a nice story and everything, but it’s not like he cared whether they ever won and it’s not like he left town with any dignity. He’s not Dustin Pedroia. I’m sorry. You wouldn’t be trading Clay Buchholz for him. The fact that there were only two teams willing to take him with the Red Sox willing to pay his salary in 2008 and neither team would give up a prospect really tells you something about his stature in the game.

You said he left this town with no dignity. That’s a pretty strong statement.

Ask the clubhouse kids that got stiffed. Ask all the people around the ballpark.

However, it was the guys in the clubhouse that made the determination that they could no longer play with this guy.

Oh yeah, there’s no question about that. They went on, and next year, wherever he is in the American League, making $5 million, $6 million, it’ll be a total non-story. Meanwhile, the Red Sox have internally developed the four best pitchers on the staff for whom they pay a total of $13.5 million for this season in Lester, Buchholz, Bard and Papelbon.

Do you think Manny goes into the Hall of Fame, and do you think he goes in on the first ballot?

Well, I think the question’s going to be, there are only two players of Hall of Fame level that failed drug tests after drug testing was put in place. If anyone says, “I can’t vote for Bonds,” you can’t possibly vote for Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro. They were caught with the rules in place. That’s totally different than whether it’s Roger Clemens or Mark McGwire, and believe me, I really struggle with the whole McGwire [issue].

Do you really just like McGwire? Does that make a difference?

No, that has nothing to do with it. Drug testing wasn’t put into place until 2005, and if you’re going to talk about the Hall of Fame and all that goes with it, there are only two players of Hall of Fame consideration that were suspended from the game for failing drug tests.

Some people are talking about, though, the possibility of Manny getting in and Bonds and Clemens not getting in even though Manny was the only one of those three to fail a drug test under the 2005 program.

I do think that, let’s see Manny plays two more years and then he’s got 15 years so he’s got a long time to go in history. I think there’s a distinct possibility that it will be forgiven and forgotten. There’s no question that you take out that August 1, 2008, to when he was suspended on May 7 of last year, you take that out and in a four-year period, his OPS is the same as Billy Butler’s. But I have no idea whether he was actually enhanced by drugs or what it was. He might have been so happy to get out of Boston that maybe that was part of it.

I think all these debates are going to be very, very difficult. I really struggled with the McGwire thing, and Bonds and Clemens are in an entirely different league. Manny Ramirez is unquestionably a Hall of Fame player. There’s no doubt about it in terms of ability. The questions is how much of this is going to be a moral issue. I think in time it will all go away, and I think Manny will make it in.

They probably will all get in, you’re right.

Yeah, but one thing I think is happening this year, and I think it’s been great for the game, is there have been so many extraordinary young players that have come in and caught everybody’s eye. Whether it’s [Stephen] Strasburg or [Jason] Heyward or [Mike] Stanton or Buster Posey or whatever, I think a lot of people have turned the page now. “OK, that era has passed. Let’s move on. We’ve got all these tremendous young players. Let’s move on.” I think as people do that, they’ll be more forgiving. I really believe that.

For some of these young pitchers, they could have really solid 12-15-year careers. How much of that is due to the extensive new drug testing program?

That’s something I really can’t figure just because I’ve always believed the percentage of pitchers juicing was greater than the percentage of position players juicing. That said, yes there were guys that came out of independent leagues and were suddenly throwing 96 miles per hour, but I think the impact of home runs was greater. I believe if I’m not mistaken, Elias put out a thing last week that the runs per game are the lowest since 1992.

I think teams have learned a lot about developing young pitching. I think that’s why we have the innings limits, the pitch limits, and I think that’s helped really build up some arms and some extraordinary talent. I think that’s helped. Plus, it may be cyclical, too. There’s no explanation for Stephen Strasburg except that he’s just a once-in-a-generation talent. You’ve got two guys in San Francisco. You’ve got the two guys here in Boston. There’s Phil Hughes in New York. There are some tremendous young pitchers around in the game, and it’s certainly changed the emphasis I think people have. Those teams that invest most heavily in pitching right now are probably going to be the most successful in a hurry. Speaking of that, Toronto hits a lot of home runs, but the fact is with J.P. Ricciardi they developed some really good young starting pitchers that made them respectable as opposed to Baltimore, which has one.

Are there degrees to cheating in baseball? Basically, if the alleged steroid users are going to get into the Hall of Fame, is Pete Rose ever going to get in?

He’s just such a different case. … We have Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame. I think because the era was so predominant with guys using enhancers and they weren’t banned in baseball, I think it has been a little bit of an overreaction to it. Pete’s a little different because there was so much evidence and to get out, he had to ask out of baseball. He had the opportunity to come back and blew it again, which is really a shame because he’s one of the most fascinating characters that were ever around. Great player and played the game with such passion and fervor.

But I think that there’s going to be more and more people that look at it and say, “What does cheating really mean?” I agree with you. I think that’s a great question. What is cheating? There was a guy once killed by a spitball. It’s a question that those of us that vote for the Hall of Fame wrestle with this thing so much every year, and it’s going to be such a lightning rod when Bonds and Clemens come up that it’s going to be fascinating. Debate will be heated.

I really believe that now that we’re seeing some of these guys come along, young players and the way we’re becoming focused the way the NBA is on their young players, we finally have it in baseball. Maybe some of that past is forgiven. We stop dwelling. I still read an occasional column that says such and such about Mark McGwire or Sammy Sosa. Well, you know, that’s in the tail lights now. It is past and we have to figure out where its part in history goes, but I don’t think we’re going to come to grips with it. I think because of that, going to back to Manny, I don’t know the extent of his usage over the years, but my guess is when it comes down to the voting, I think I’ll vote for him. Now, just because I think he was a great player without it, a great hitter without it, and I think it’s going to be hard to keep him out.

What is it about some of these players, like Pedroia on Saturday, that they look completely fooled on one pitch and hit a single to right immediately after?

I think that he’s so intelligent. He’s looking for certain pitches. I actually thought that [Jonathan] Broxton, as hard as he throws, is a good matchup for Pedroia because Dustin knows enough to say, “I don’t have to hit one to the Monster seats. I don’t need to hit a laser. I can just hit a line drive into right field and we win the game.” I think that at-bat, he knew what he could and couldn’t do. Someone said today, “Was Jeff Weaver not a better matchup against Dustin Pedroia than Jonathan Broxton?” Fascinating question, because Pedroia can hit a fastball. There’s no getting around it. And Pedroia again is so smart. He knows to take the ball the other way.

Has it surprised you that the Red Sox are performing so well with people they never expected to be on the squad?

Well, that does surprise me. One of the fun kind of things about this season is that [Daniel] Nava’s a great story. Darnell McDonald’s 14th year in professional baseball is a great story. They’ve had a lot of stories like that. Pitching makes it possible for you to have different heroes every day, but the two of them got into the rotation at the same time back on August 19 last year. Buchholz is the winningest pitcher in the American League, and Lester’s third or fourth, so they’ve been there. They’re so good.

I still think they have to have [Josh] Beckett back and they have to have [Jacoby] Ellsbury back for the second half of the season because, as good as [Marco] Scutaro has been and I liken to remind people that he has one more extra-base hits over the last year than Derek Jeter, they need Ellsbury hitting between Scutaro and Pedroia, 9, 1, 2. That makes a huge difference. Down the stretch, it’s going to be really important to have them, but if they get Beckett and Ellsbury back, they’ll be right in this thing until the very end, barring that Adrian Beltre runs over anybody else.

Is it bad for Major League Baseball in that one of the three teams, the Red Sox, Rays and Yankees, won’t make the postseason?

It is good and it is bad. But it brings up the fascinating question somebody, I think Baseball Prospectus, raised, “Could there be a team that wins 100 games and doesn’t make the playoffs?” Now, we know that happened, but in this era, that’s really difficult to do. It is a possibility that all three teams could win 100 games, and one of them doesn’t make the playoffs.

None of those teams have been very active as far as going out in the trade market, which has been pretty quiet at this point, but I think you’re going to see, if Tampa can afford it, I think you’ll see all three teams be very aggressive come July for what they need. I’m not sure any of them know exactly what they need right now, but I think that will be a sideshow as for who can get what for the last two months of the season.

How good is Ubaldo Jimenez, and how is he so much better than what we’ve seen over the past two years?

It was really coming. It was just consistency and his command, but at a number of spring training games, a couple of players were telling me that his command is just getting ridiculous. He gets such an angle that the ball just explodes down in the strike zone. Josh Johnson has that angle, and the ball is a hard, hard sinker, and Josh Johnson is really, really good, but Jimenez is unusual in that the ball just explodes down there. This will be a really tough trip. I believe they get Jimenez, [Matt] Cain and [Tim] Lincecum on this trip. Lincecum actually hasn’t been great. He pitched better the last two times. Cain has just been sensational with luck. I think if they go 3-3 on this trip, they’ll be very happy.